Tuesday, May 03, 2005
This Day:

In this age of global warming and pollution, it is imperative that we find cleaner sources of energy. Some alternatives, such as hydrogen-powered fuel cells are quite appealing, since the exhaust from such cells is pure water. However, Hydrogen, being a gas, occupies a large volume, and this is hampering any real development in this area. Now researchers from National Institute of Science and Technology (Taner Yildirim) and Turkey's Bilkent University (Salim Ciraci) have developed a new model for a metal-laced Carbon Nano-tube, which can latch on to hydrogen molecules in numbers more than adequate for efficient hydrogen storage, a capability key to long-term efforts to develop fuel cells.

Model: Titanium-Blue, Hydrogen-Red (Courtesy: NIST)
Carbon nanotubes are tubes composed entirely of carbon atoms, and often composed of a chain of carbon rings (picture here). Calculations by the researchers show that if decorated with Titanium or other transition metals, such tubes can attract Hydrogen atoms, which get attached to the Titanium atoms. The total weight of Hydrogen can be upto 8% of the weight of the tubes, which exceeds the standard of 6% specified by the FreedomCar Research Partnership involving the US Department of Energy and USA's "Big 3" automakers. Moreover, if heated, the Titanium atoms readily give up four attached Hydrogen atoms! Such reversible desorption is another requirement for practical Hydrogen storage.
The new results, obtained with a method for calculating the electronic structure of materials, surprised the researchers. Interactions among Carbon, Titanium and Hydrogen seem to give rise to unusual attractive forces. The upshot is that four Hydrogen molecules can dock on a Titanium atom, apparently by means of a unique chemical bond of modest strength. Several forces at work within the geometric arrangement appear to play a role in the reversible tethering of Hydrogen.
The results are the first glimmer of hope in sustainable storage of Hydrogen in mass quantities. If developed, this technology should allow vehicles to have a nanotube-based fuel tank, capable of storing large quantities of Hydrogen in a small enough volume to be of practical use :).

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44 Comments:

At May 04, 2005 9:36 PM, Blogger Unknown said...
Is it just adsorption, or anything more than that?

U mustve heard of NEC's nanotube fuel cells for cellphones (methanol based).(http://www.labs.nec.co.jp/
Eng/Topics/data/r010830/). Combining these two techs together, we'll have fuel cells everywhere and soon!

And yea, if the fuel cells are hydrogen based, instead of methanol based, then how will there be enough hydrogen for everybody, if it becomes a huge success?

You may say that, u can split water. But effectively, u r doing and undoping a reaction. So, there's no net energy gain. In fact, there'll be a loss due to inefficiencies in energy conversion.
 
At May 04, 2005 9:42 PM, Blogger Sray said...
I have heard of the NEC fuel cell. As you said, the current technology doesnt allow a large-scale, efficient production of Hydrogen, as it is energy-inefficient. But lets think beyond the current technology.

Suppose in 10 years, nuclear fusion becomes practical. Then, such a technology can be used to split the water, and store Hydrogen in nano-tube tanks! Then a hydrogen economy is not only possible, but feasible as well.

Even without a fusion economy, it perhaps makes sense to manufacture Hydrogen using other techniques (coal, petroleum, methanol) on a large scale, as it will be more efficient (and with right filters, less polluting) than burning gasoline in millions of cars. Hydrogen can then be used in cars and other devices... and the production of Hydrogen can be through more and more efficient methods, as technology matures.
 
At May 04, 2005 9:46 PM, Blogger Sray said...
But of course, I am not trying to address the issue of cost here. It will definitely cost a lot to convert to a pure Hydrogen (or something else) based economy. I am only addressing the technical side of the problem.
 
At May 04, 2005 9:52 PM, Blogger Unknown said...
"it perhaps makes sense to manufacture Hydrogen using other techniques (coal, petroleum,"

But isnt it better to burn them directly rather than going thru indirect methods?

And btw, where do u work? u seem to be lookin up ur blog, thruout the day!
 
At May 04, 2005 10:03 PM, Blogger Sray said...
It is better... but it could be more inefficient. And of course, once we move to fusion-based economy, we can keep the cars running on Hydrogen!

I am in Grad School, so have considerably more freedom than most. And when anyone writes a comment, I get a notification mail, and will reply if it is worth it :-).
 
At May 04, 2005 10:10 PM, Blogger Unknown said...
which subjext? which university?

Does sray stand for sting ray?
 
At May 04, 2005 10:20 PM, Blogger Sray said...
LOL... no, 's' doesnt stand for 'sting' :)). And I want to stay anonymous, pal... I like it that way :-).
 
At May 05, 2005 2:31 AM, Blogger Unknown said...
fine........ sorry!
 
At May 05, 2005 2:32 AM, Blogger Unknown said...
But u can atleat tell which subject or branch!
 
At May 05, 2005 5:48 AM, Blogger Onkroes said...
I'm sorry to always be the negative one, partly because I love technology so much and wish everyone did, but....

Cost is not the only factor - there have to be overriding reasons that make the major motor manufacturers (for example) go this way.

Patents are one way (do you know if this research is being patented) for companies to recoup not only the cost of research but also the cost of conversion. But Esso/Shell/BP/etc. are not going to willingly move from a petroleum based economy to a hydrogen based one without not only considerable financial incentives, but probably pressure from world governments (which just isn't happening - witness what the US government is doing with US oil companies).

I think this technology sounds great, but I don't think it's the 'breakthrough' event in energy production/storage that we need.

I'm not knocking the research mind!
 
At May 05, 2005 5:50 AM, Blogger Onkroes said...
Speaking of large scale gas conversion - how about terraforming Venus (or at least it's atmosphere)?
 
At May 05, 2005 6:06 AM, Blogger Unknown said...
Yeah. Just think about replacing all petrol bunks with Hydrogen bunks. Petrol has pipelines and all. The invention needed now, is to safely store and distribute hydrogen on a large scale. Only then eill it be useful to even think of political issues!
 
At May 05, 2005 6:11 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Sudhir: I will pass on that one for now, I hope you dont mind :-).

Onkroes: I agree with you. But science proceeds at its own pace, and then a totally new industry opens up. I dont think the gas pumps are going to disappear overnight. Instead, there might be a gradual shift... if we are able to provide Hydrogen in a more affordable manner. But I agree, a lot of pressure/resolutions/initiatives from the World Governments is probably required.

Sudhir: True. Once the basic technical issues are all ironed out, some enterprising businessperson will think of some new application (e.g. hydrogen powered aircrafts... you get the buoyancy from hydrogen, and can also use it as fuel!), and then slowly a new niche will open.
 
At May 05, 2005 6:11 AM, Blogger wise donkey said...
still trying to absorb the post and the discussion, sounds interesting
 
At May 05, 2005 6:12 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Sudhir... if I told you my field of research, I assure you, it wont take you long to find out my identity :-). Thanks for understanding!
 
At May 05, 2005 6:14 AM, Blogger Sray said...
WD, the technology is interesting on its own merits. Onkroes is right that it will take a lot of effort to make it commercial on a large scale.. but... small steps like this might mature into big things in a decade or so, things we do not have any inkling of right at this moment.
 
At May 05, 2005 7:38 AM, Blogger Unknown said...
Back to flying on hydrogen ballons! Only this time u burn the hydrogen!

And never mind abt knowin ur field! Just was a lil curious looking at the diverdity in ur posts - nanotech, space, bio and all.
 
At May 05, 2005 7:43 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Sorry for that, Sudhir.. thanks for understanding! Will tell you this much, professionally, I am *not* in any of those three fields you mention :D:D.
 
At May 05, 2005 8:21 AM, Blogger Unknown said...
ok..... Hmmmm, u r a very interesting character!

Urs is one of the few blogs that ive got addicted to recently! So adiicted that i am reading ur blog and commenting, inspite of having an exam 2moorow! Keep up the good work!
 
At May 05, 2005 10:04 AM, Blogger Akruti said...
Ok,it went out of my head,bouncer:(( so will read it again,but when started reading the comments i understood a bit of it,Well,if i tell any of my friends that i am reading abt science and technology and Hydrogen they would faint:((
Hmm,so u want to remain in dark,ok,good,i was abt to ask u,"R u a scientist? :))))
 
At May 05, 2005 11:56 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Sudhir: LOL! But now, dont come back and tell me you didnt do well in exams because of my blog :)). Thanks a lot, though :-).

Akruti: Well, it is this. Hydrogen, being a gas, occupies a lot of space, so transporting it is not that easy. If we could find a way to compress it, so that it occupied a smaller volume, it would be so much easier. But your garden-variety compression increases pressure (like inside a butane tank), and that is dangerous as well.
So scientists have now come up with this new technique, in which hydrogen atoms are attracted to a nano-mesh (very fine mesh of Carbon and Titanium). As the atoms get attached to the mesh, you can store a lot of hydrogen in a small space. Now this can be useful for fuel-cell applications, for example, driving cars that run on pure hydrogen.

Got it? Let me know if there are doubts still :-).
 
At May 05, 2005 12:31 PM, Blogger Akruti said...
Dont laugh but they are going to compress it like we compress lot of data into a zip file without changing or altering the data:))) i know,i know,u must be laughingout loud:(( but thanks,now i understand it well and u know how i felt:) like a student,and u sounded like a teacher explaining it to a 5yr kid,pheww,thankuuuuuuuu:) And akruti is neelima,did u get that??
 
At May 05, 2005 12:41 PM, Blogger Sray said...
Yaa... I know Akruti is Neelima :-). But now I am confused about your real name :)). I used Akruti so that the other readers do not get confused about whom I am referring to.
 
At May 05, 2005 12:59 PM, Blogger Akruti said...
lol,my real name is Neelima,My blog URL is Akruti,{giving shape to my thoughts.hope the confusion is over now,Neelima means blue sky:) and u dint tell me if u laughedout after reading my comment:( and u dint tell me if ur a scientist,the only scientists i know are from DRDO,my mom is a technical officer there:)
 
At May 05, 2005 1:02 PM, Blogger wise donkey said...
:) well even i am addicted like sudhir,to this blog:)

btw whats "how about terraforming Venus (or at least it's atmosphere)? " was it reference to the hydrogen available in venus??

=== unrelated to this post.
some months back i saw a prg in bbc (i think it was exploration series) wherein a person who was partially visually challenged (ie could see with only one eye) had participated in an experiment.
words were flashed on the monitor and he was "seeing" with the eye with which he couldnt see and the good eye was covered and he had to draw what came in his mind.
he had no idea on the words flashed on the screen. yet he could draw them. and even after seeing the drawin had no clue on the words, later.
(i think this had to do with communication between left right brain) but i still didnt understand parts of it, and would like to more on that topic, (just for interest). any idea where i can find more on it. couldnt get when i searched thru bbc.

only if its not a prob and doesnt take ur time:)
 
At May 05, 2005 1:04 PM, Blogger Sray said...
I did laugh out loud :))... as I am doing now... but only in the inside (as I am at work, and people will think I am mad!) :D:D:D.

I am a graduate student in The New York area. So I guess that qualifies as a scientist... but as you know, research is often in a narrow field of expertise, and I wanted to write a very broad blog on science and technology which has nothing to do with my research in particular. Hopefully, this blog serves that purpose :-):-).

And again, I really like your blog. Even scientists have had experiences in life that they cherish, and your blog helps me relive those memories :-). Lots of thanks for that, Neelima-ji :):):).
 
At May 05, 2005 1:22 PM, Blogger Akruti said...
Ohhhhhhh,ok,so ur into Research,well,i have a very wrong opinion that scientific { i am always doubtful abt the spelling} ppl are so busy always that they dont have time for personal feelings:) well,i am wrong i guess,huh,i am wrong,i know that,just for fun.I think every person is entitled and feels certain emotions,some know how to put it in words and some cannot,but doesnt mean they cannot feel.And i know u laughed,how can someone not when i think like a dumb girl:( all my friends laugh when i related some stupid things for understanding very imp aspect,well,but at the end is it not imp to understand?? i do the same with my students,relating the unrelated.Well,life also does it,dont u think so??
Oh god,i am turing a scientific blog into a philosophy centre,sorrrrry,me running off from here,goodnight
 
At May 05, 2005 1:30 PM, Blogger Sray said...
WD: It will be very hard to terraform Venus (sorry Onkroes for missing out on that question earlier). Venus has a dense CO2 atmosphere, which has led to a runaway greenhouse situation. This is partly the reason why the surface temperature there is so high (467C). If all that CO2 could be cleared up, the Venusian climate would be similar to Earth's... so a method needs to be found for this clean-up, and only then can the terraforming start.

Hmm.. abt. the BBC program. That happens because the person in unconsciously perceiving the letters. Somehow the connection between his occipital lobe (the area that processes signals from the eyes) and the frontal lobe (where conscious thoughts arise) has been damaged... it was a very interesting insight into how our brain works.

I tried to search for an article :-(, but couldnt find it. I will look for it again later, but in case you have any questions, ask me.
 
At May 05, 2005 1:39 PM, Blogger Sray said...
Neelima (Akruti): No one is good in everything.. so not being good in science does not make you dumb! You are good in what you do, obviously.. BTW, what do you do? What do you teach?

And of course, one always puts his/her foot in the mouth while trying to understand new things :)). I am sure if I am in your class, I would ask some really stupid questions too :)).

And I dont mind it getting turned into philosophy. Science and Philosophy are inextricably linked... and there are intense philosophical, moral and human questions in a lot of the science that is being worked on around us.

I would really appreciate if you write any such comment regarding any of my posts :-).
 
At May 05, 2005 1:43 PM, Blogger wise donkey said...
terraforming venus therefore means makin venus similar to earth, i.e for growth of life purpose?
but then if we cleared the co2, wouldnt it be still very hot, since nearer to sun?

re that, oh please, never mind, its just that i found it very fascinating and had been wonderin abot it for some months . but actually i think u explained it now better than the whole prg.

so basically though the info doesnt go from the eyes to the conscious thought, it still goes to part which controlled the hand movement (i.e in a lay person language). guess the brain processes stuff at different levels.
 
At May 05, 2005 1:47 PM, Blogger wise donkey said...
btw onkroes q on patent is it relevant for practical application of somethin like this?

i would have thought that sellin somethin which doesnt pollute would make cos,desperate for it (if price also competitive i.e)
and wonder if somethin like this can change economics of some countries and nature of international politics..
 
At May 05, 2005 3:07 PM, Blogger Sray said...
WD: I am answering all your questions one at a time :-).

a) Terraforming: Terra means Earth.. so terrforming Venus means making Venus Earth-like. The dream here would be to make Venus liveable for us. Venus is closer to Sun, but the temperature is governed a lot by the atmospheric conditions. If Venus has less CO2 than Earth's atmosphere, then it can sustain temperatures similar to that of Tropical Earth.

b) Abt. the brain, yes :-). There are several steps between the light entering our eyes, and our getting conscious of what we are seeing. Take out the consciousness step, and you get what happened to this poor fellow!

c) Abt. Onkroes' statement... of course it will change a lot of international politics. Just imagine what the middle east would do, if the world slowly gets out of the habit of drinking so much oil.
 
At May 05, 2005 5:34 PM, Blogger Onkroes said...
"q on patent is it relevant for practical application of somethin like this?"

On the physical application of this, no, there will be no impact. But to give an example, if Exxon Oil bought the patent to this technique (which with some development could put their oil business in jeopardy) then they could kill the invention by not allowing anyone to make use of it. On the other hand, if they charge for it's use then they can earn money for it and that may persuade them to promote it instead. Hope that's clear :-)
If (hydrogen) fuel cells could use this technique to be extremely compact it could indeed revolutionise the autombile industry.

BTW the comment about terraforming Venus was by way of a link to the previous post about mars, combining a post about making use of gasses for energy. Sorry it was a bit obscure :-\
 
At May 05, 2005 9:25 PM, Blogger Akruti said...
Well,if u were in my class then u would have heard me saying "there is nothing called silly or stupid in doubts,u have a doubt and i am here to clear them,forget what ur friends will sayo r if they will laugh at u and all" I teach for Postgraduate students,MBA,MCA,M.COM.I am an MBA-Finance but not interested in Corporate career,so opted for my fav and only passion apart from music,Teaching:)
well,if interested then this tells u better abt me,go through it
http://akruti.blogspot.com/2005/04/life-full-circlea-pause-here.html#%20Blogger%20comments
 
At May 05, 2005 9:29 PM, Blogger Akruti said...
Ha,i couldn put a link here properly,there is a post in my blog in the same page "LIFE A FULL CIRCLE-A PAUSE HERE" which describes me and my work:) read that if ur interested.
well,i ended my day with a comment in ur blog and now i started my day again with a comment here,got to go now,lots of work.And one more thing,Yes,i am good at what i do,Teaching:)
And philosophy of life and reading ppl and their thoughts,their words is my interest.havefun.
 
At May 06, 2005 3:26 AM, Blogger wise donkey said...
thanks :)
 
At May 06, 2005 5:48 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Neelima: Thanks for all that info :-). I love teaching too... and will be really happy if I could do that in future :-).
 
At May 06, 2005 6:39 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Oh by the way, Neelima, I didnt say "you were asking stupid questions" :). No question is stupid. Sometimes the innocent of all questions, which might sound stupid at surface, open up totally new questions. Happens and happened a lot in science, and people asking such questions have often brought revolution in our understanding of science and nature and our place in it.
 
At May 06, 2005 8:39 AM, Blogger wise donkey said...
Sray you will make an Excellent teacher:)
 
At May 06, 2005 8:42 AM, Blogger Sray said...
Thanks :). Now if only my prospective employers would read my blog... :)):)).
 
At May 06, 2005 5:16 PM, Blogger Sray said...
LOL! Thanks :-).
 
At May 07, 2005 1:45 AM, Blogger wise donkey said...
:)) I second, Un-Apologetic Atheist
 
At May 07, 2005 3:14 PM, Blogger Unknown said...
Oops too late to post on this one! Two guys have run ahead of me! Me third!
 
At May 07, 2005 3:15 PM, Blogger Sray said...
LOL!! Should I start a fan-club or something? ;);)... but seriously, thanks for all your support :):).
 

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